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Erokai
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#41 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:43 am Post subject: |
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I never said venom isn’t an important part. I specially said it is a minor part. When you compare it to your physical damage, and in some duels, how much MB damage you will be doing, along with OW and crushing blow, venom ranks in the bottom half. While your definition and usage of the word minor might be different than mine, it still remains that venom on chaos, is dumb, anyway you Slice it.
This is strictly talking about how venom on your chaos is dumb. |
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ForgottenDreamer
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#42 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:43 am Post subject: |
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Erokai wrote: | I never said venom isn’t an important part. I specially said it is a minor part. When you compare it to your physical damage, and in some duels, how much MB damage you will be doing, along with OW and crushing blow, venom ranks in the bottom half. While your definition and usage of the word minor might be different than mine, it still remains that venom on chaos, is dumb, anyway you Slice it.
This is strictly talking about how venom on your chaos is dumb. |
Theres something particularly perverse and degenerate to me about building a ghost with the top realm imports and dupes and the dueling other ghosts or hybrids or barbs. When I'm playing BvC and a barb hostiles me, I either ignore him entirely or if he tried to chase me I slap him around with a widowmaker with clegs gloves and lacerator swap and grief venom active until he gets the message and buzzes off. Ghost vs ghost or vs barb, its just a dumb matchup. You could build a fort elephantsin with tele charges on circlet or in bm could use eternity revives bramble kicker
Anyway I swear by a 102 setup and I'm loathe to go down to 65 and I dont think Id even bother with a mirror matchup where you roleplay as BvBs with tits.
Anyway one thing worth noting that gets lost in all this is that while 1% wb or +3 venom might only be a marginal 3% dps or ehp, the bm prebuff setup with bramble, 6 claws and 3 shadow circlet/ammy is *not* a minor boost. You can get 4305 venom, which is 366 hp vs 75/-100. About double the damage of a non prebuff venom. Also lets be real, even on fully geared near perfect chars, a lot of people have non maxed poison resist. Venom can scale a lot higher |
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WinningBreeds
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#43 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:43 am Post subject: |
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Ghosts are fortuned with the luxary of almost being able to hardskill every needed skill they use. You are not so dependent on staffmods from claws as a hybsin or even trapper and the 3 most rewarding skills to buff would be MB, WB and Venom. Your recommendation to at no cost get venom staff mods is just a bad advice. |
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DuckDuckGo
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#44 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:44 am Post subject: |
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Ghost is also extremely strapped for skills.
Ghost uses 14 hard skill points for skills to either get to other skills or skills you only put 1 into. 8 from traps, 2 from martial arts and 4 from shadow disc.
Then you “max” 5x skills: Mind Blast, claw mastery, weapon block, fade, and venom. The last of which to max is venom.
That puts you at 114 skills. Given at 99, you only get 110 skills, you are left with a 4 skill deficit.
Meaning you need staff mods to make up the lack of skills.
One way is obvious to get, and that’s Lightning sentry, but that will only save you 3 skills, as you need fire blast to get to blade shield and WoF.
Leaving you with 5 staff mod slots left (3x available on both claws, but you are using 1x slot for Lightning sentry). But still a 1 skill deficit.
You also need to have +3 weapon block on one of the slots, or 2 slots totaling 3. For this case, we will just use 1x slot, to make it simple.
Leaving you with 3x slots left.
But you want both Claws to have mind blast.
So now you have 1x slot left.
But look at that, even at 99 you are still at a 1 skill deficit for what you need.
And the only way to make up that one skill deficit, is to skill wake of fire, and get a claw with a blade shield staff mod.
Now you have 0 staff mod slots, and all the skills you need, at 99.
You really don’t know what you are talking when it comes to ghost and builds. And the above example is if you are 99. It gets worse if you are less than 99.
There is no room for venom on chaos, unless you have BiS slot claw that doesn’t exist. |
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Erokai
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#45 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:44 am Post subject: |
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Or we could instead drop the 2x mind blast staff mods, in favor of 2xVenom.
Meaning, we gain 3 venom skills over BO side, but lose 6 mind blast points.
Gaining 3 venom but loosing 6 mind blast is a retarded idea. |
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Erokai
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#46 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:45 am Post subject: |
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If you want to theory craft and live the the fairy tale land in which there is a high Ed eth Rep fools with 3venom, 3 weapon block, and 3 min blast, along with a glitched chaos suwayyah with 3venom, blade shield and 1-3 Lightning sentry , be my guest. You would be100% correct.
I’ll stick to the “real” world. Venom on chaos is dumb. In the real world, you are wrong. |
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ForgottenDreamer
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#47 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:45 am Post subject: |
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To give another example build
say you're on a 102 dancer build on ladder where you cant get zbugs or import claws or valk and struggle to get good fools. Well you have +22 shadow skills on claw side and +25 cta side. You only need to skill 17 fade and you get 63% wb without any +skills on claws and cant reach 64% without absurd claws (+3 chaos and +4-5 rare).
well at that point getting fade or wb on claws is useless, getting venom only matters at 4-6 total, and 6+ mb is still mandatory
now Im not saying thats better than a gore setup. Gore vs dancers is its own topic- gores would definitely want +2 wb on claws. If you leave it up to me I'll wind up skilling 1 claw mastery and 20 shadow master and just holding down level 50 mind blast namelocked on people on a full retard bison build _____________________ Top dog 5-0-5 |
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Erokai
Group: Members Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 59 Gold: 6.40
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#48 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:46 am Post subject: |
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ForgottenDreamer wrote: | To give another example build
say you're on a 102 dancer build on ladder where you cant get zbugs or import claws or valk and struggle to get good fools. Well you have +22 shadow skills on claw side and +25 cta side. You only need to skill 17 fade and you get 63% wb without any +skills on claws and cant reach 64% without absurd claws (+3 chaos and +4-5 rare).
well at that point getting fade or wb on claws is useless, getting venom only matters at 4-6 total, and 6+ mb is still mandatory
now Im not saying thats better than a gore setup. Gore vs dancers is its own topic- gores would definitely want +2 wb on claws. If you leave it up to me I'll wind up skilling 1 claw mastery and 20 shadow master and just holding down level 50 mind blast namelocked on people on a full retard bison build |
And I wouldn’t argue with you |
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WinningBreeds
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#49 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:46 am Post subject: |
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This is why I wrote "almost being able to hardskill every needed skill they use".
But you're also wrong. You got no need to max fade for 50%dr (~ +3 hardpoints), you can have +2sin on offhand (+2 hardpoints), etc -> venom staff mod on claws is possible and can be BiS.
63wb is also debatable since it leaves you very restricted in gear choices and weaponry when you got a budget which we all have (well, not unless if you sell your car for that pixel claw). I wouldn't be able to use 08valk build since my fools and cruel doesn't have wb as an example. Meaning that a 62wb setup is the best build and frees up all the skill points you need. If you are on ladder and on a budget/ low level you wouldn't go 63wb anyway becouse it would cost you to much in items (would need a 3 staffmod chaos with rand cruel/fools). Some ghosts find WoF more useful than LS aswell, which also frees up for venom on claws. It's quite funny actually that you are calling me a residential in fairy tale town, when it's quite the opposite.
So, are we clear now that venom staffmods can be very useful in some scenarios?
I've never claimed that venom is BiS as a staff mod (but actually seems like it can be in fairy tale land). All I've done is correcting your unknowledge about ghosts in general and venom in particular which you are starting to grasp now it seems. |
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DuckDuckGo
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#50 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:46 am Post subject: |
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WinningBreeds wrote: | This is why I wrote "almost being able to hardskill every needed skill they use".
But you're also wrong. You got no need to max fade for 50%dr (~ +3 hardpoints), you can have +2sin on offhand (+2 hardpoints), etc -> venom staff mod on claws is possible and can be BiS.
63wb is also debatable since it leaves you very restricted in gear choices and weaponry when you got a budget which we all have (well, not unless if you sell your car for that pixel claw). I wouldn't be able to use 08valk build since my fools and cruel doesn't have wb as an example. Meaning that a 62wb setup is the best build and frees up all the skill points you need. If you are on ladder and on a budget/ low level you wouldn't go 63wb anyway becouse it would cost you to much in items (would need a 3 staffmod chaos with rand cruel/fools). Some ghosts find WoF more useful than LS aswell, which also frees up for venom on claws. It's quite funny actually that you are calling me a residential in fairy tale town, when it's quite the opposite.
So, are we clear now that venom staffmods can be very useful in some scenarios?
I've never claimed that venom is BiS as a staff mod (but actually seems like it can be in fairy tale land). All I've done is correcting your unknowledge about ghosts in general and venom in particular which you are starting to grasp now it seems. |
There is so much bad information in here I don’t know where to start.
Considering you have +3 skill on bo side, +2 sin skill does nothing for fade.
Literally the only thing you need for 63% WB, outside of normal gear, is +3 WB from your claws.
In most duels you use LS, not WoF. WoF is mostly for duels in which the opponent doesn’t tele (ghost vs ghost, VTs) or doesn’t tele much (and is not zon). Every other scenario, LS is better.
There is 1 scenario in which venom staff mods is good, and that’s in fairy tale land with claws that don’t exist. |
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WinningBreeds
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#51 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:47 am Post subject: |
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On cruel side, before venom, I have 2908-3729 damage.
I can’t math well but I believe that’s more than 3000 average damage before venom.
I mean I didn’t take out the cold damage from raven frost or the lightning damage from highlords, but.... |
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ForgottenDreamer
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#52 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:47 am Post subject: |
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WinningBreeds wrote: | On cruel side, before venom, I have 2908-3729 damage.
I can’t math well but I believe that’s more than 3000 average damage before venom.
I mean I didn’t take out the cold damage from raven frost or the lightning damage from highlords, but.... |
you must be including other sources of damage than physical
if you've got a claw like this one;
https://i.postimg.cc/HxMjTZbK/Plague-Bite-War-Fist.jpg
then you'd have ~254 base minimum damage, maybe a bit more if there's min on your rings or circlet.
even if you're overstatted with 190 str / 140 dex and have +203% ed from claw mastery and -10% whirlwind, that's a total of 440.5% ed. Which only reaches 1372 minimum damage. Even with 2x 40% ed jewels and 2x +9 rings it would still only be 1687 minimum. Heck, even if you had that claw and were doing the silly 600 dex build you still wouldn't break 3k. Nevermind your max damage, which could include fools mod, small charms, whatever- its easier just to look at the min damage. |
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Erokai
Group: Members Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 59 Gold: 6.40
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#53 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:48 am Post subject: |
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ForgottenDreamer wrote: | WinningBreeds wrote: | On cruel side, before venom, I have 2908-3729 damage.
I can’t math well but I believe that’s more than 3000 average damage before venom.
I mean I didn’t take out the cold damage from raven frost or the lightning damage from highlords, but.... |
you must be including other sources of damage than physical
if you've got a claw like this one;
https://i.postimg.cc/HxMjTZbK/Plague-Bite-War-Fist.jpg
then you'd have ~254 base minimum damage, maybe a bit more if there's min on your rings or circlet.
even if you're overstatted with 190 str / 140 dex and have +203% ed from claw mastery and -10% whirlwind, that's a total of 440.5% ed. Which only reaches 1372 minimum damage. Even with 2x 40% ed jewels and 2x +9 rings it would still only be 1687 minimum. Heck, even if you had that claw and were doing the silly 600 dex build you still wouldn't break 3k. Nevermind your max damage, which could include fools mod, small charms, whatever- its easier just to look at the min damage. |
Negative.
I’m using doom thirst. It does not have any ele damage on it.
And not using a 600 Dex build.
I have 4475 life. |
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Erokai
Group: Members Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 59 Gold: 6.40
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#54 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:50 am Post subject: |
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ForgottenDreamer wrote: | WinningBreeds wrote: | On cruel side, before venom, I have 2908-3729 damage.
I can’t math well but I believe that’s more than 3000 average damage before venom.
I mean I didn’t take out the cold damage from raven frost or the lightning damage from highlords, but.... |
you must be including other sources of damage than physical
if you've got a claw like this one;
https://i.postimg.cc/HxMjTZbK/Plague-Bite-War-Fist.jpg
then you'd have ~254 base minimum damage, maybe a bit more if there's min on your rings or circlet.
even if you're overstatted with 190 str / 140 dex and have +203% ed from claw mastery and -10% whirlwind, that's a total of 440.5% ed. Which only reaches 1372 minimum damage. Even with 2x 40% ed jewels and 2x +9 rings it would still only be 1687 minimum. Heck, even if you had that claw and were doing the silly 600 dex build you still wouldn't break 3k. Nevermind your max damage, which could include fools mod, small charms, whatever- its easier just to look at the min damage. |
You are also doing your math incorrectly.
Giving that 100% ED, is doubling your damage, 100ED is a 2x multiplier. They way you are doing it 200ED is a 2xmultiplier, when in fact, you multiply by three.
The best way is to add up all your ED% sources. Move the decimal over to the left by 2, than add 1 to the total. Then multiply by that number.
Therefore, if your total Ed is 675%, you would multiply by 7.75. |
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ForgottenDreamer
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#55 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:51 am Post subject: |
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Erokai wrote: | ForgottenDreamer wrote: | WinningBreeds wrote: | On cruel side, before venom, I have 2908-3729 damage.
I can’t math well but I believe that’s more than 3000 average damage before venom.
I mean I didn’t take out the cold damage from raven frost or the lightning damage from highlords, but.... |
you must be including other sources of damage than physical
if you've got a claw like this one;
https://i.postimg.cc/HxMjTZbK/Plague-Bite-War-Fist.jpg
then you'd have ~254 base minimum damage, maybe a bit more if there's min on your rings or circlet.
even if you're overstatted with 190 str / 140 dex and have +203% ed from claw mastery and -10% whirlwind, that's a total of 440.5% ed. Which only reaches 1372 minimum damage. Even with 2x 40% ed jewels and 2x +9 rings it would still only be 1687 minimum. Heck, even if you had that claw and were doing the silly 600 dex build you still wouldn't break 3k. Nevermind your max damage, which could include fools mod, small charms, whatever- its easier just to look at the min damage. |
You are also doing your math incorrectly.
Giving that 100% ED, is doubling your damage, 100ED is a 2x multiplier. They way you are doing it 200ED is a 2xmultiplier, when in fact, you multiply by three.
The best way is to add up all your ED% sources. Move the decimal over to the left by 2, than add 1 to the total. Then multiply by that number.
Therefore, if your total Ed is 675%, you would multiply by 7.75. |
try actually multiplying those numbers
ex if you have 254 and 440.5% ED total, then the damage is 254 * (1+4.405) = 1372.87, like I said
or if you an extra 80% from jewels and +18 min on rings that's (254+18)*(1+4.405+0.8) = 1687.76, like I said
if you're using a 355 min claw like doom thirst and have ~440% ED, you're still looking at just ~1917 min damage
not 2900
you're missing a whole 1000 damage there. Unless you're wearing a fortitude, it ain't physical. |
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DuckDuckGo
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#56 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:51 am Post subject: |
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ForgottenDreamer wrote: | Erokai wrote: | ForgottenDreamer wrote: | WinningBreeds wrote: | On cruel side, before venom, I have 2908-3729 damage.
I can’t math well but I believe that’s more than 3000 average damage before venom.
I mean I didn’t take out the cold damage from raven frost or the lightning damage from highlords, but.... |
you must be including other sources of damage than physical
if you've got a claw like this one;
https://i.postimg.cc/HxMjTZbK/Plague-Bite-War-Fist.jpg
then you'd have ~254 base minimum damage, maybe a bit more if there's min on your rings or circlet.
even if you're overstatted with 190 str / 140 dex and have +203% ed from claw mastery and -10% whirlwind, that's a total of 440.5% ed. Which only reaches 1372 minimum damage. Even with 2x 40% ed jewels and 2x +9 rings it would still only be 1687 minimum. Heck, even if you had that claw and were doing the silly 600 dex build you still wouldn't break 3k. Nevermind your max damage, which could include fools mod, small charms, whatever- its easier just to look at the min damage. |
You are also doing your math incorrectly.
Giving that 100% ED, is doubling your damage, 100ED is a 2x multiplier. They way you are doing it 200ED is a 2xmultiplier, when in fact, you multiply by three.
The best way is to add up all your ED% sources. Move the decimal over to the left by 2, than add 1 to the total. Then multiply by that number.
Therefore, if your total Ed is 675%, you would multiply by 7.75. |
try actually multiplying those numbers
ex if you have 254 and 440.5% ED total, then the damage is 254 * (1+4.405) = 1372.87, like I said
or if you an extra 80% from jewels and +18 min on rings that's (254+18)*(1+4.405+0.8) = 1687.76, like I said
if you're using a 355 min claw like doom thirst and have ~440% ED, you're still looking at just ~1917 min damage
not 2900
you're missing a whole 1000 damage there. Unless you're wearing a fortitude, it ain't physical. |
It’s 100% possible and it’s physical damagw (outside of the damage from raven frost and highlords)
Because I have it lol.
Enigma
2sin/20fcr/38life/20dex/visionary/2os circlet with 1x 7fhr/30ed/9dex/30psn Res Jewel and 1x 7fhr/30ed/9dex/60ar Jewel
Highlords
Gore riders
24fhr/10ow/30str/77life/29psn Res belt
10fcr/120ar/5str/15dex/60life Ring
Raven frost
Steelrends - I swap between steelrends, drac, and Trang’s. For ghost vs ghost, myself and fornicate have been heavily testing steelrends and by all accounts, it has been beating Trang’s for gvg
9x 45
10x 3/20/20
Doom thirst war fist
Obviously the above is my gvg setup.
Even removing steelrends in preference of Trang’s would still keep my physical damage average at around 3200 instead of 3300, like it is above.
Dropping to 65fcr setup will minimally impact the average damage as well, as I will swap gores for dancers and arach for crafted belt. Giving me a 5 stat Ed decrease (removing 30str from belt but giving me 25 Dex from boots) but increasing claw mastery by 3x skill (arach + dancers) and WW by 1 skill (arach)
Dropping to 102 obviously will affect this number more, but will probably settle in the 2700 average damage range. But this is speculation and not supported by any specific facts b |
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WinningBreeds
Group: Members Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 53 Gold: Locked
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#57 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:52 am Post subject: |
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ForgottenDreamer wrote: | Erokai wrote: | ForgottenDreamer wrote: | WinningBreeds wrote: | On cruel side, before venom, I have 2908-3729 damage.
I can’t math well but I believe that’s more than 3000 average damage before venom.
I mean I didn’t take out the cold damage from raven frost or the lightning damage from highlords, but.... |
you must be including other sources of damage than physical
if you've got a claw like this one;
https://i.postimg.cc/HxMjTZbK/Plague-Bite-War-Fist.jpg
then you'd have ~254 base minimum damage, maybe a bit more if there's min on your rings or circlet.
even if you're overstatted with 190 str / 140 dex and have +203% ed from claw mastery and -10% whirlwind, that's a total of 440.5% ed. Which only reaches 1372 minimum damage. Even with 2x 40% ed jewels and 2x +9 rings it would still only be 1687 minimum. Heck, even if you had that claw and were doing the silly 600 dex build you still wouldn't break 3k. Nevermind your max damage, which could include fools mod, small charms, whatever- its easier just to look at the min damage. |
You are also doing your math incorrectly.
Giving that 100% ED, is doubling your damage, 100ED is a 2x multiplier. They way you are doing it 200ED is a 2xmultiplier, when in fact, you multiply by three.
The best way is to add up all your ED% sources. Move the decimal over to the left by 2, than add 1 to the total. Then multiply by that number.
Therefore, if your total Ed is 675%, you would multiply by 7.75. |
try actually multiplying those numbers
ex if you have 254 and 440.5% ED total, then the damage is 254 * (1+4.405) = 1372.87, like I said
or if you an extra 80% from jewels and +18 min on rings that's (254+18)*(1+4.405+0.8) = 1687.76, like I said
if you're using a 355 min claw like doom thirst and have ~440% ED, you're still looking at just ~1917 min damage
not 2900
you're missing a whole 1000 damage there. Unless you're wearing a fortitude, it ain't physical. |
You are still doing your math wrong tho. The example above, would be 254*5.405.
Not 254*4.405
Sorry maybe I read wrong, I’m at work and just skimming |
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ForgottenDreamer
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#58 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:53 am Post subject: |
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even with a rather ridiculous pseudo-bvb setup with steelrends and a craft belt, even with 205 strength and 133 dex and 120% ed on gear + 183% claw mastery - 10% whirlwind, you're adding up to 355 min damage and 546.5% ed = 2295 damage
what did you do, socket doom thirst with 2x ohms? Overstat str/dex by a ton? I mean, once we're talking about what's effectively a female BvB and not a ghost, this has already gone off the rails. But you're still short 600 damage
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DuckDuckGo
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#59 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:54 am Post subject: |
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ForgottenDreamer wrote: | even with a rather ridiculous pseudo-bvb setup with steelrends and a craft belt, even with 205 strength and 133 dex and 120% ed on gear + 183% claw mastery - 10% whirlwind, you're adding up to 355 min damage and 546.5% ed = 2295 damage
what did you do, socket doom thirst with 2x ohms? Overstat str/dex by a ton? I mean, once we're talking about what's effectively a female BvB and not a ghost, this has already gone off the rails. But you're still short 600 damage |
I’d have to check if the 2900-3700 damage is with my OHm Ohm doom thirst or my Lo Ber doom thirst. Seeing as I have 2, I didn’t tKe the time to check, which one was equipped.
Was just more proving that my 3000-3200 avg phys damage is 100% possible. |
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Erokai
Group: Members Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 59 Gold: 6.40
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#60 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:55 am Post subject: |
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d have to check if the 2900-3700 damage is with my OHm Ohm doom thirst or my Lo Ber doom thirst. Seeing as I have 2, I didn’t tKe the time to check, which one was equipped.
Was just more proving that my 3000-3200 avg phys damage is 100% possible. |
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