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Ls Needed On Ghost?
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Erokai


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Post#21 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But due to how WW works and venom duration and how poison damage working, the poison length is reset every time you land a new hit. So most of the time you don’t even get the full effect of venom. Only your last hit in a WW volley do you get full duration/ damage.

While impossible to precisely calculate, you don’t even get the full ~11pvp damage referenced above.

Venom sucks.
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Post#22 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is 100% unwise to build around increasing venom damage.

Do you use venom, yes.

Do you max venom for ghost and hybrids, most of the time.

Do you try to make your fools/chaos combo increase venom damage, no.
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Post#23 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


ure, but you also very often are dealing with blocked hits, missed hits due to AR/defense, hits soaked up by minions or opponent wsging out of range or so on so forth and hits really aren't anywhere as frequent in practice as the 2 fpa maximum ww hypothetical dps.
you can't calculate that, no point trying to quantify it, but while venom isn't going to deal as much as its full damage per hit, its going to do a reasonable % of it

but the other side to consider is that while the amount of pvp damage from venom might seem low, ghost ww damage is low to begin with. A non-ebug chaos on a 102 gore sin winds up doing something like 125 hp in pvp physical damage vs 50 DR, a bit more with a 63 highlords setup, a bit less with dancers, +58 magic pvp damage. When you're doing 125 physical + 58 magic + "some % of 181 poison", even +14 venom is still a significant increase to your total damage. If you were to weight it and say venom is giving half its value as direct damage, that's like +2.7% overall ww damage output. Whereas 62->63% WB is like +2.7% overall EHP

overall its very minor slices off the top either way. You could duel 100 games in a row and never notice the difference between 62 & 63 wb or 45 and 48 venom.
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Post#24 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


ure, but you also very often are dealing with blocked hits, missed hits due to AR/defense, hits soaked up by minions or opponent wsging out of range or so on so forth and hits really aren't anywhere as frequent in practice as the 2 fpa maximum ww hypothetical dps.
you can't calculate that, no point trying to quantify it, but while venom isn't going to deal as much as its full damage per hit, its going to do a reasonable % of it

but the other side to consider is that while the amount of pvp damage from venom might seem low, ghost ww damage is low to begin with. A non-ebug chaos on a 102 gore sin winds up doing something like 125 hp in pvp physical damage vs 50 DR, a bit more with a 63 highlords setup, a bit less with dancers, +58 magic pvp damage. When you're doing 125 physical + 58 magic + "some % of 181 poison", even +14 venom is still a significant increase to your total damage. If you were to weight it and say venom is giving half its value as direct damage, that's like +2.7% overall ww damage output. Whereas 62->63% WB is like +2.7% overall EHP

overall its very minor slices off the top either way. You could duel 100 games in a row and never notice the difference between 62 & 63 wb or 45 and 48 venom.


I’m fully aware. I virtually only play ghosts and hybrids.

I have tried virtually every combo of chaos/fools for both. And with 100% certainty, building your claw combo around venom is terrible
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Post#25 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare
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Post#26 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.
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Post#27 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


true that.
2 soc none eth is almost equally good as eth 1 soc for ghost. ofc it scales in the eth favour if u have cruel instead of fools and such. it also scales higher if hl build.
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Post#28 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how this turned into a venom sucks conversation.

When all the math has already been done. And there is a whole jsp thread called venom sucks.
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Post#29 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


Buying sin gear for $$ doesn't mean you are good at sins, sorry. Posts like this just acknowledge your comprehension about the build.
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Post#30 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venom is a large chunk of your damage output as goom discussed above, it's plain stupid to nerf it on purpose.
That thread is based around the idea that you constantly ww your opponent (pvm style) which perhaps is how some duel but nothing like the fast paced duels looks like today.
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Post#31 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


Buying sin gear for $$ doesn't mean you are good at sins, sorry. Posts like this just acknowledge your comprehension about the build.


I am very good at hybrid and ghost dueling.


Venom is a minor chunk of your damage and is the last skill to max. Therefore building around it is bad.

For instance, my ghost has over 3000 (I think it’s 3200 iirc), physical WW damage, not on chaos side, before venom is applied. Assuming, max DR, and only the 3000 on screen damage, the pvp damage, is 255, before any deadly strike is calculated.

Depending on level and gear, either on ghost or hybrid, you might not even have enough skills to max venom. Therefore getting optimal skills, will actually increase the amount you can put into venom, along with increasing your claw block % or mind blast.


Does venom do damage, yes. Does it help to have more venom damage, yes.

Do you actively look to increased venom damage at the expensive of claw block, mind blast, no.
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Post#32 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

even with a 450% ed eth rep war fist with 400 base damage and +15 avg from scs, a sin with only ~210% ed from stats and ~195% from CM and ~6% from whirlwind, that's a total of 2.1k damage before DS/CS, maybe 2.8k after.
a 63 build can get significantly more with circlet affixes and jewels and with highlords, but its not like a 450% ed eth rep is war fist comparison is realistic when a fools claw deals much less damage, and chaos side deals even less

if you're using non-ebug chaos and a reasonably godly fools (lets say 290% ed eth rep) on a 102 gores build you're still looking at maybe 1.5k phys chaos + 2.1k phys fools after DS/CS, then add the magic damage on chaos and venom and open wounds and as much CB as you can cram in since 2x ber is going to be at least a good as any other socket.

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Post#33 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForgottenDreamer wrote:
even with a 450% ed eth rep war fist with 400 base damage and +15 avg from scs, a sin with only ~210% ed from stats and ~195% from CM and ~6% from whirlwind, that's a total of 2.1k damage before DS/CS, maybe 2.8k after.
a 63 build can get significantly more with circlet affixes and jewels and with highlords, but its not like a 450% ed eth rep is war fist comparison is realistic when a fools claw deals much less damage, and chaos side deals even less

if you're using non-ebug chaos and a reasonably godly fools (lets say 290% ed eth rep) on a 102 gores build you're still looking at maybe 1.5k phys chaos + 2.1k phys fools after DS/CS, then add the magic damage on chaos and venom and open wounds and as much CB as you can cram in since 2x ber is going to be at least a good as any other socket.


It’s more than for sure. Looks like you are forgetting Dex and Str .75% Ed bonus. You will be at like 170-190str and 120-140 Dex.

Again, my ghost on fools/cruels side is 3000-3200 before venom is applied. I’ll have to actually look when I get the chance to log on.
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Post#34 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
even with a 450% ed eth rep war fist with 400 base damage and +15 avg from scs, a sin with only ~210% ed from stats and ~195% from CM and ~6% from whirlwind, that's a total of 2.1k damage before DS/CS, maybe 2.8k after.
a 63 build can get significantly more with circlet affixes and jewels and with highlords, but its not like a 450% ed eth rep is war fist comparison is realistic when a fools claw deals much less damage, and chaos side deals even less

if you're using non-ebug chaos and a reasonably godly fools (lets say 290% ed eth rep) on a 102 gores build you're still looking at maybe 1.5k phys chaos + 2.1k phys fools after DS/CS, then add the magic damage on chaos and venom and open wounds and as much CB as you can cram in since 2x ber is going to be at least a good as any other socket.


It’s more than for sure. Looks like you are forgetting Dex and Str .75% Ed bonus. You will be at like 170-190str and 120-140 Dex.

Again, my ghost on fools/cruels side is 3000-3200 before venom is applied. I’ll have to actually look when I get the chance to log on.


thats including stat %ed. You can get 210%+ or so from stats, 190-200% from cm... and unless you use %ed circlet and jewels, thats it. Ghosts are a really low %ed build, 63 setup actually gets some mileage out of a %ed stacked circlet.

there was some silly theoryshitting in a thread a few weeks ago about a dex glass ghost build that gets 600% ed and insanely high ar and has only charms for life. Would be funny with a high war fist. Not practical
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Post#35 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


Buying sin gear for $$ doesn't mean you are good at sins, sorry. Posts like this just acknowledge your comprehension about the build.


I am very good at hybrid and ghost dueling.


Venom is a minor chunk of your damage and is the last skill to max. Therefore building around it is bad.

For instance, my ghost has over 3000 (I think it’s 3200 iirc), physical WW damage, not on chaos side, before venom is applied. Assuming, max DR, and only the 3000 on screen damage, the pvp damage, is 255, before any deadly strike is calculated.

Depending on level and gear, either on ghost or hybrid, you might not even have enough skills to max venom. Therefore getting optimal skills, will actually increase the amount you can put into venom, along with increasing your claw block % or mind blast.


Does venom do damage, yes. Does it help to have more venom damage, yes.

Do you actively look to increased venom damage at the expensive of claw block, mind blast, no.


No, you're not hitting with 3.2k avg physical damage from cruels and not even close for fools. A 450ed 20max cruel WF wouldnt even reach 2.8k avg phys before crit without totally destroying the build.

Lets look at Venom vs CM:
Adding 1 point into CM increases your ED with +4%.
Adding 1 point in Venom (lvl 45 -> 46) adds 55 psn dmg.

That +4%ed will result ~ +5 avg pvp dmg on the 450/20 cruel WF case above (crit included), which translates to ~2.5 avg pvp damage after DR.
That 55 psndmg venom increase would be ~5 avg pvp damage against a 75res player in hell.

So 1 point in venom would actually yield double the amount of damage increase compared to CM. That is on a perfect WF cruel which nobody even owns. For a perfect fools claw you can expect ~1.5 avg dmg increase for that point in CM, that's less than 1/3 of the increase venom would give you.
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Post#36 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
even with a 450% ed eth rep war fist with 400 base damage and +15 avg from scs, a sin with only ~210% ed from stats and ~195% from CM and ~6% from whirlwind, that's a total of 2.1k damage before DS/CS, maybe 2.8k after.
a 63 build can get significantly more with circlet affixes and jewels and with highlords, but its not like a 450% ed eth rep is war fist comparison is realistic when a fools claw deals much less damage, and chaos side deals even less

if you're using non-ebug chaos and a reasonably godly fools (lets say 290% ed eth rep) on a 102 gores build you're still looking at maybe 1.5k phys chaos + 2.1k phys fools after DS/CS, then add the magic damage on chaos and venom and open wounds and as much CB as you can cram in since 2x ber is going to be at least a good as any other socket.


It’s more than for sure. Looks like you are forgetting Dex and Str .75% Ed bonus. You will be at like 170-190str and 120-140 Dex.

Again, my ghost on fools/cruels side is 3000-3200 before venom is applied. I’ll have to actually look when I get the chance to log on.


thats including stat %ed. You can get 210%+ or so from stats, 190-200% from cm... and unless you use %ed circlet and jewels, thats it. Ghosts are a really low %ed build, 63 setup actually gets some mileage out of a %ed stacked circlet.

there was some silly theoryshitting in a thread a few weeks ago about a dex glass ghost build that gets 600% ed and insanely high ar and has only charms for life. Would be funny with a high war fist. Not practical


I’m fully aware that ghosts are lacking ED. Our main skills we only get lvl 1 + whatever + all skills we have on gear. Really limits the ED/AR bonus we get.

For your reference, it’s 65fcr bp.

But ghosts these days, use 42fcr setup for duels against other ghosts, hybrids, VTs, barbs, and nado druids.

Myself and a couple others have also dropped to 27fcr for ghost vs ghost and ghost vs. bvc in favor of using steelrends or Dracs instead of Trang gloves. The added CB, especially for vs. bvcs is huge.

102 is mostly used vs trappers and some necros. However, I tend to go 65 on necros. I’ll use a 102 vs fireball sorcs as well. 65 vs blizz sorcs.
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Post#37 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


Buying sin gear for $$ doesn't mean you are good at sins, sorry. Posts like this just acknowledge your comprehension about the build.


I am very good at hybrid and ghost dueling.


Venom is a minor chunk of your damage and is the last skill to max. Therefore building around it is bad.

For instance, my ghost has over 3000 (I think it’s 3200 iirc), physical WW damage, not on chaos side, before venom is applied. Assuming, max DR, and only the 3000 on screen damage, the pvp damage, is 255, before any deadly strike is calculated.

Depending on level and gear, either on ghost or hybrid, you might not even have enough skills to max venom. Therefore getting optimal skills, will actually increase the amount you can put into venom, along with increasing your claw block % or mind blast.


Does venom do damage, yes. Does it help to have more venom damage, yes.

Do you actively look to increased venom damage at the expensive of claw block, mind blast, no.


No, you're not hitting with 3.2k avg physical damage from cruels and not even close for fools. A 450ed 20max cruel WF wouldnt even reach 2.8k avg phys before crit without totally destroying the build.

Lets look at Venom vs CM:
Adding 1 point into CM increases your ED with +4%.
Adding 1 point in Venom (lvl 45 -> 46) adds 55 psn dmg.

That +4%ed will result ~ +5 avg pvp dmg on the 450/20 cruel WF case above (crit included), which translates to ~2.5 avg pvp damage after DR.
That 55 psndmg venom increase would be ~5 avg pvp damage against a 75res player in hell.

So 1 point in venom would actually yield double the amount of damage increase compared to CM. That is on a perfect WF cruel which nobody even owns. For a perfect fools claw you can expect ~1.5 avg dmg increase for that point in CM, that's less than 1/3 of the increase venom would give you.


Claw mastery can’t spawn on claws.
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Post#38 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WinningBreeds wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


Buying sin gear for $$ doesn't mean you are good at sins, sorry. Posts like this just acknowledge your comprehension about the build.


I am very good at hybrid and ghost dueling.


Venom is a minor chunk of your damage and is the last skill to max. Therefore building around it is bad.

For instance, my ghost has over 3000 (I think it’s 3200 iirc), physical WW damage, not on chaos side, before venom is applied. Assuming, max DR, and only the 3000 on screen damage, the pvp damage, is 255, before any deadly strike is calculated.

Depending on level and gear, either on ghost or hybrid, you might not even have enough skills to max venom. Therefore getting optimal skills, will actually increase the amount you can put into venom, along with increasing your claw block % or mind blast.


Does venom do damage, yes. Does it help to have more venom damage, yes.

Do you actively look to increased venom damage at the expensive of claw block, mind blast, no.


No, you're not hitting with 3.2k avg physical damage from cruels and not even close for fools. A 450ed 20max cruel WF wouldnt even reach 2.8k avg phys before crit without totally destroying the build.

Lets look at Venom vs CM:
Adding 1 point into CM increases your ED with +4%.
Adding 1 point in Venom (lvl 45 -> 46) adds 55 psn dmg.

That +4%ed will result ~ +5 avg pvp dmg on the 450/20 cruel WF case above (crit included), which translates to ~2.5 avg pvp damage after DR.
That 55 psndmg venom increase would be ~5 avg pvp damage against a 75res player in hell.

So 1 point in venom would actually yield double the amount of damage increase compared to CM. That is on a perfect WF cruel which nobody even owns. For a perfect fools claw you can expect ~1.5 avg dmg increase for that point in CM, that's less than 1/3 of the increase venom would give you.


Claw mastery can’t spawn on claws.


No shit sherlock.
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Post#39 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DuckDuckGo wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


Buying sin gear for $$ doesn't mean you are good at sins, sorry. Posts like this just acknowledge your comprehension about the build.


I am very good at hybrid and ghost dueling.


Venom is a minor chunk of your damage and is the last skill to max. Therefore building around it is bad.

For instance, my ghost has over 3000 (I think it’s 3200 iirc), physical WW damage, not on chaos side, before venom is applied. Assuming, max DR, and only the 3000 on screen damage, the pvp damage, is 255, before any deadly strike is calculated.

Depending on level and gear, either on ghost or hybrid, you might not even have enough skills to max venom. Therefore getting optimal skills, will actually increase the amount you can put into venom, along with increasing your claw block % or mind blast.


Does venom do damage, yes. Does it help to have more venom damage, yes.

Do you actively look to increased venom damage at the expensive of claw block, mind blast, no.


No, you're not hitting with 3.2k avg physical damage from cruels and not even close for fools. A 450ed 20max cruel WF wouldnt even reach 2.8k avg phys before crit without totally destroying the build.

Lets look at Venom vs CM:
Adding 1 point into CM increases your ED with +4%.
Adding 1 point in Venom (lvl 45 -> 46) adds 55 psn dmg.

That +4%ed will result ~ +5 avg pvp dmg on the 450/20 cruel WF case above (crit included), which translates to ~2.5 avg pvp damage after DR.
That 55 psndmg venom increase would be ~5 avg pvp damage against a 75res player in hell.

So 1 point in venom would actually yield double the amount of damage increase compared to CM. That is on a perfect WF cruel which nobody even owns. For a perfect fools claw you can expect ~1.5 avg dmg increase for that point in CM, that's less than 1/3 of the increase venom would give you.


Claw mastery can’t spawn on claws.


No shit sherlock.


Attack rating bonus <<< much more important than the ED bonus

It’s not a rant about how crappy venom is.

It’s simply pointing out that there is much better ways to optimize your sin than to seek out venom on your chaos.

Especially given the lack of availability of good fools/cruels on ladder, it is especially important to get a chaos that saves you the most hard skill points and boosts your active skills, rather than your buff skills.
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Post#40 Posted: 10 Apr 2021 04:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
Erokai wrote:
DuckDuckGo wrote:
Erokai wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
WinningBreeds wrote:
ForgottenDreamer wrote:
getting venom and fade on claws is perfectly fine if you plan to play gm without excessive prebuffing
I mean sure you can get +6/6/10/10 claws for a fortune and then spend an extra minute every time you die swapping on bramble and shadow circlet and ammy, but its as bm as it is slow


Prebuff is BM on East.

So 6/6/10 claws are BM, unless you doing a team duel

But fade and venom on claws is a terrible waste of a staff mod slot for hybrid or ghost, any way you slice it


6/6/10 are 6venom/6fade/2x poison facets claws


I dunno, if it was gm no prebuff I'd say getting +3 venom over CTA side isn't bad from 2x +3 claws. +3 venom is probably a bigger effect than +1% clawblock or some minor shadow master or whatever
+fade is crab since at best its saving you +1-3 skill points when you have +4-6 fade to hit 42, but you could have just gotten +4-6 into whatever you'd have spent those skill points in, wb >> and even sm >
I'd feel good about using 2x +3 mind blast / +3 venom base claws if it meant +6 mb and +3 venom overall.


Venom sucks.

1% WB > 3 venom by a long shot.

1 point of venom only adds about 4pvp damage.

If your chaos has +3 venom, it means your fools claw has to have either, +sin skills or + venom on it, to get any effect.

For instance, if your fools claw has +2 sin and your chaos has +3 venom, you are only gaining 2 venom skill, over BO side, but are having to use a +3 staff mod slot.

You would be better off using that +3 staff mod slot, on mind blast for instance, to actually gain +3 from that slot.


Oh and venom sucks.

Did i say venom sucks.

Can’t remember.

Venom sucks.


In my experience its two primary issues-
-you almost never get to actually choose what staffmods on claws you want because even on NL good bases and rares are obnoxiously scarce and on ladder its hard enough to get a plain +3 base for chaos. And without careful staffmod choosing the +venom/fade is totally worthless since you need to have +4-6 before you get anything at all.
and
-because fade and wb cap at 42 and you can hit that with +0-3 on staffmod claws depending on rare +1/2 all claws, griffs or dancers, ghosts often get capped out without claws and even save skill points depending on setups. And then you're stuck spending your skill points on extremely low marginal utility skills, SM vs CoS vs DC

If I was capping out wb/fade anyway and could get my choice of staffmods I'd gladly take a +3 mind blast / +3 venom chaos and +2 sin / +3 mind blast / +3 venom rare


For ghost you would want 2 socket instead of 2sin.


My hybrid has a:
2 sin
40ias
290 Ed
Fools
Eth
Eth rep
3ls
3venom
1 mind blast

I would prefer it to have +3 weapon block or blade shield or mind blast instead of +3 venom. Even with having +5 venom on my main claw, I still don’t use a venom chaos, because venom sucks and venom on chaos is dumb. I use a 3ls/2blade shield/3mind blast/2attack rating chaos.


Buying sin gear for $$ doesn't mean you are good at sins, sorry. Posts like this just acknowledge your comprehension about the build.


I am very good at hybrid and ghost dueling.


Venom is a minor chunk of your damage and is the last skill to max. Therefore building around it is bad.

For instance, my ghost has over 3000 (I think it’s 3200 iirc), physical WW damage, not on chaos side, before venom is applied. Assuming, max DR, and only the 3000 on screen damage, the pvp damage, is 255, before any deadly strike is calculated.

Depending on level and gear, either on ghost or hybrid, you might not even have enough skills to max venom. Therefore getting optimal skills, will actually increase the amount you can put into venom, along with increasing your claw block % or mind blast.


Does venom do damage, yes. Does it help to have more venom damage, yes.

Do you actively look to increased venom damage at the expensive of claw block, mind blast, no.


No, you're not hitting with 3.2k avg physical damage from cruels and not even close for fools. A 450ed 20max cruel WF wouldnt even reach 2.8k avg phys before crit without totally destroying the build.

Lets look at Venom vs CM:
Adding 1 point into CM increases your ED with +4%.
Adding 1 point in Venom (lvl 45 -> 46) adds 55 psn dmg.

That +4%ed will result ~ +5 avg pvp dmg on the 450/20 cruel WF case above (crit included), which translates to ~2.5 avg pvp damage after DR.
That 55 psndmg venom increase would be ~5 avg pvp damage against a 75res player in hell.

So 1 point in venom would actually yield double the amount of damage increase compared to CM. That is on a perfect WF cruel which nobody even owns. For a perfect fools claw you can expect ~1.5 avg dmg increase for that point in CM, that's less than 1/3 of the increase venom would give you.


Claw mastery can’t spawn on claws.


No shit sherlock.


Attack rating bonus <<< much more important than the ED bonus

It’s not a rant about how crappy venom is.

It’s simply pointing out that there is much better ways to optimize your sin than to seek out venom on your chaos.

Especially given the lack of availability of good fools/cruels on ladder, it is especially important to get a chaos that saves you the most hard skill points and boosts your active skills, rather than your buff skills.


It seems you are starting to realise that venom is important part of the damage output of a ghost, and yes you did rant in the quotes above. The AR is the most rewarding part of CM indeed.

A ghost will have have plenty of hard points to skill so an extra venom buff from claws is a very good idea if it's possible for that extra damage boost.

On spider setup you are likely to deal ~ 50/50 physical-venom dmg depending on the build or not very far from it. On ladder low budget builds you can often deal more venom damage than physical damage hence it's even of higher importance to rely on your venom, especially since its not uncommon for opponents to have crappy resists.
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